Chatting with Ron Martoia about doubt...
Hi folks,
Here's where we can connect to Ron Martoia with questions, those that cause us to doubt. We'll start a discussion about those questions... No singular answers are allowed ;-)
Please stick to English as far as possible, and enjoy.
Here's where we can connect to Ron Martoia with questions, those that cause us to doubt. We'll start a discussion about those questions... No singular answers are allowed ;-)
Please stick to English as far as possible, and enjoy.
Views: 18
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ron Martoia on -
Gang if you want to get a hold of me hit me on my website at velocityculture.com (put in your email address) or twitter at "rsmartoia"
Thanks for letting me engage in the conversation with you. I love that Theo is willing to engage this topic and host the space where questions are the reason...instead of the typical answers.
So...what types of doubts are you wrestling with? Intellectual/head or intuitional/heart?
What hit you about the 1P 2P 3P understanding of our world and how does that help you get at the doubt questions?
Let the conversation begin!
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Permalink Reply by Antoon de Klerk on -
Hi Ron - thanks for sharing your thoughts on a sustabsive conversation last night. Gald to hear we share yet another 'iconn' - Soren Kierkegaard.
Just an observation on what I would call a false dichotomy between the princely 'hard' science and the scummy religius/faith stuff - what some would label the rational/irrational divide. My obervation that much of my daily life (driving a car, managing money, using the toilet/phone/elevator/plane) is based on the law of large numbers - i.e. stats/physics and all the 'rational' stuff versus my 'higher' ideals/goals/beliefs were based on the non-rational stuff created a searing internal condemnation of being un-integrated to the extent of being hypocratical in me (sorry long sentence).
But then I followed the rabbit trail...and it turns out that the 'rational stuff have some pretty irrational foundations. Reason is based on an unreasonable acceptance of the ability of a certain methodoly (known as science - but then only for a certain time period before it too becomes mythology) to discover facts about 'what is'.
The catch is that science cannot be believed on the same grounds as what it ask us to believe its facts. Karl Popper calls this an irrational belief in rationality.
So fundamentally (as a first-cause) we hold our beliefs (or lack thereof) about Science/reason in exactly the same way as those about/in/outside of God/god.
Your take on this?
Antoon
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ron Martoia on
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Antoon,
I like your observations. I think we are dealing with the foundational beliefs...right...all of which are faith commitments and it doesn't matter whether those faith commitments are about God or that the chair you are about to sit in won't break, we make faith commitments that apply equally well in both of those domains.
I think my point though similar is just a tad different. I am trying to grant that 3P tools (microscopes and telescopes) are wholly appropriate for their tasks. BUT equally in appropriate for non 3P pursuits. So while the beliefs at the most basic level for all these pursuits are the same (called properly basic or foundational) the domain of those tools is restricted. We end up creating doubt when we think 1P beliefs, notions, aspirations, love, purpose, hope are some how inferior, nonexistant or some how weaker when they don't stand up well to 3P scrutiny
So Gang, what are you processing since Sunday's conversation?
Antoon de Klerk said:Hi Ron - thanks for sharing your thoughts on a sustabsive conversation last night. Gald to hear we share yet another 'iconn' - Soren Kierkegaard.
Just an observation on what I would call a false dichotomy between the princely 'hard' science and the scummy religius/faith stuff - what some would label the rational/irrational divide. My obervation that much of my daily life (driving a car, managing money, using the toilet/phone/elevator/plane) is based on the law of large numbers - i.e. stats/physics and all the 'rational' stuff versus my 'higher' ideals/goals/beliefs were based on the non-rational stuff created a searing internal condemnation of being un-integrated to the extent of being hypocratical in me (sorry long sentence).
But then I followed the rabbit trail...and it turns out that the 'rational stuff have some pretty irrational foundations. Reason is based on an unreasonable acceptance of the ability of a certain methodoly (known as science - but then only for a certain time period before it too becomes mythology) to discover facts about 'what is'.
The catch is that science cannot be believed on the same grounds as what it ask us to believe its facts. Karl Popper calls this an irrational belief in rationality.
So fundamentally (as a first-cause) we hold our beliefs (or lack thereof) about Science/reason in exactly the same way as those about/in/outside of God/god.
Your take on this?
Antoon
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Permalink Reply by Maryke Nieuwoudt on -
I hope you can see the attachment.
This is why doubt in faith is more than healthy but necessary I guess. If one reads the rest of this pamphlet it gets worse. By some illogical reasoning, selective text and even more selective emphasis this pamphlet calculates the date of the end of the world. For example " In 2 Peter 3:8...Holy God reminds us that one day is as 1,000 years. Therefore, with the correct understanding that the seven days...can be understood as 7,000 years... He was also telling the world that there would be exactly 7,000 years (one day is as 1,000 years) "...bla bla bla. And more and more of the same. (For those interested it is calculated 7000 years after the flood of Noah).
For me doubt is part of my life. Even though Antoon will say I say things with such conviction that others believe it must be true! Maybe it's easier to accept doubt for a scatter brain like me. Not a lot of things are absolute in my mind. Not even in 3p world. But it does sometimes make faith difficult. I do at times become complacent in doubt, accepting that I don't KNOW but in the process I sometimes forget to go back to God and ask him...to doubt my doubt.
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Permalink Reply by Regardt Botes on -
Hi Ron
Theo touched on it briefly at the end and I don't know if you were still online - but there is also a form of "bad" doubt. And would like to have your thoughts on growth inhibiting doubt.
I think doubt in humbleness goes hand in hand. If doubt makes you humble, but willing to search for more and grow it is great. But doubt can also often kill your passion and sometimes I just settle with my doubt - "its fine to doubt, therefore I will go on doubting" - but not growing. Your thoughts on this? When is doubt positive, when negative? Is there even such a thing!? What does it mean to grow in faith? Do I erase doubt when I grow?
On a related topic - prayer and faith.
I was in a church last year which focussed a lot on healing / miracles etc. The "Whatever you ask in My name I shall give it to you" or "If you have faith (and do not doubt) you will be healed" was thrown around a lot. I had a big knee injury at the time - tore my acl, pcl, medial + miniscus - so I was the perfect instrument for a miracle! tried to believe and have faith for a miracle, but it did not happen.
I tried more and more and tried to convince myself that I had 100% faith that I will be healed -up until I was in the hospital bed being pushed into the theater I prayed and believed that the doctor will open my knee up and that I would be healed.
To cut I long story short - I was not healed - although I understand the path and the process which I had to go through now - and actually seeing a miracle as I was able to fully recover in double quick time and do more than I ever could have thought !! - I intially often doubted my faith, prayer and healing.
Okay - so that's a mouthful - one line question: Do you think God answers doubtful prayers?
Okay
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Permalink Reply by Sanet Boshoff on -
Hi Ron
I liked what you said Sunday that knowing is not faith. I have so many questions (heart and head) about God and the bible that any non-believer will be excited to pin point "I told you so". But I believe we all go through phases and that is what growth is all about. I came to a point (hope I will stay here, but I doubt it, cause life is a journey, not an arrival) where I just grasp the words "I am". At this point in life, thats enough for me. A book that helped me a lot was "The Shack" by William Young. It broke aal religious misconceptions we have about God and the reason why the world is in such a mess. I am looking forward to Sunday.
P.S. A lot of I in this paragraph, maybe that's the answer to many problems - hahahaha!
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ron Martoia on
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There is no question about it doubt brings with it a measure of intellectual humility doesn't it? What we maybe thought was so certain isn't so certain and what we thought we had so easily figured out is now not so clear. I think one of the key things you said is sometimes you just settle for your doubt. This is when doubt DOES BECOME corrosive like rust. And slowly but surely eats away at your confidence in God.
This doesn't mean we have to have everything figured out before faith and confidence are "fully" in place becasue I am not sure that is ever the case or that we could ever say "now I have it all perfectly intact."
Erasing doubt isn't the goal...at least I don't think so. Here is why...as you and I grow there are questions we engage at the next stage of the journey that are different in form, content and depth from the questions of the previous stage...right? Let's think about this in terms of simple development. There are questions at 7 years of age that are no longer questions at 16 years of age but there are new more complex and sophisticated ones.
The issue I think is how we allow the wrestling of the journey at each stage to catalyze movement forward
Regardt Botes said:Hi Ron
Theo touched on it briefly at the end and I don't know if you were still online - but there is also a form of "bad" doubt. And would like to have your thoughts on growth inhibiting doubt.
I think doubt in humbleness goes hand in hand. If doubt makes you humble, but willing to search for more and grow it is great. But doubt can also often kill your passion and sometimes I just settle with my doubt - "its fine to doubt, therefore I will go on doubting" - but not growing. Your thoughts on this? When is doubt positive, when negative? Is there even such a thing!? What does it mean to grow in faith? Do I erase doubt when I grow?
On a related topic - prayer and faith.
I was in a church last year which focussed a lot on healing / miracles etc. The "Whatever you ask in My name I shall give it to you" or "If you have faith (and do not doubt) you will be healed" was thrown around a lot. I had a big knee injury at the time - tore my acl, pcl, medial + miniscus - so I was the perfect instrument for a miracle! tried to believe and have faith for a miracle, but it did not happen.
I tried more and more and tried to convince myself that I had 100% faith that I will be healed -up until I was in the hospital bed being pushed into the theater I prayed and believed that the doctor will open my knee up and that I would be healed.
To cut I long story short - I was not healed - although I understand the path and the process which I had to go through now - and actually seeing a miracle as I was able to fully recover in double quick time and do more than I ever could have thought !! - I intially often doubted my faith, prayer and healing.
Okay - so that's a mouthful - one line question: Do you think God answers doubtful prayers?
Okay
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ron Martoia on
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Wim,
I am quite hesitant to walk into these waters in print because it isn't a simple answer you are seeking here nor is there one to offer. But I will take a shot at being honest.
There are strands of Christianity out there that make it sound as if God is looking for perfection in faith and when you achieve that then God will come through for you and not until. To prove this they cite various passages of scripture. I will be honest I think this is a terrible abuse of scripture. When Jesus says something about faith to the centurion's servant or to the blind man, to make the jump that in 2009 the circumstances in my life are the same and that the same things are being said to me??? Abuse! Now I realize this opens a totally different issue for discussion... but that sort of assumption that "if Jesus said it then, to that person there, and therefore that applies to me here and now" is incredibly dangerous. And what is more interesting is we are selective in how we apply that.
If that model if Jesus said it to them there and then and it therefore applies to me here and now is really how it is then why don't we believe that to get to heaven we have to obey the ten commandments and sell everything we have and give it to the poor? Jesus said that is what the rich young ruler had to do to inherit eternal life.
There is lots to be said to this but I think I want us to ask questions about the assumptions underlying some of these things instead of about the symptoms
As for your observations about Heb 11 Wim the context of Hebrews 11 as far as I can tell doesn't have to do with receiving answers to prayer or healing at all. As I read the chapter it is in fact quite the opposite. The guys that had faith were beaten up, sawed in half, killed, tortured etc... Your questions are soooooo important and they deserve us having long discussions
Wim Dednam said:Dear Ron/Theo
It is great that you guys spend some time talking to us about the reality of doubt in the “walk of faith” in every follower of Christ’s lives! Thank you. I think what is usually missing in such discussions (I have heard) is what it says about us when our doubts bears fruit, and our lives are shattered when prayers are not answered - a loved one dies after months of prayers, a child is taken away, a lover leaves us, we are the victims of crime, we lose our income or means of support... etc. etc. For when we pray (and believe) we invoke “the ultimate authority”; God. When a prayer goes unanswered, where do we look for answers? And how do we come to terms with the pain and loss? In a manner of speaking we are left "defenseless" against the calls for accountability that wells up in our hearts; God is sovereign, beyond reproach and above blame - we can only look at ourselves (1).
What does this say about us, and the God we cling to, when our earnest and heartfelt prayers go unanswered? Quick answers are easy to come by, verses quoted flippantly and we are admonished to look at the big picture, and/or learn "the lesson" - but real answers are far and few between.
I can only attest to my journey, when I stumble and fall I cry. Deeply. And I hurt for a long time, and when I pray I pray with doubt in my heart - doubt forged through the fire of unmet expectations, failed hopes, and unfulfilled prayers. And now I pray with a broken heart - I am to blame aren’t I?
I can only look at the following scripture with awe... it is so different in my "real" life.
"Now Faith is the assurance (the confirmation, the title-deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of the things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality - faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses." [HEBREWS 11:1 - Amplified New Testament]
Notes:
(1) Some people blame the devil for their failures and pain, and I do believe he has his part to play, but God is bigger than him, and I personally believe in taking responsibility for my "shit", and the part I played, or not.
Kindest regards, Wim
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Permalink Reply by Regardt Botes on
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Thanx Ron
Agree fully with you. Like the last part about doubt acting as a catylyst to a way forward (and in effect not backward).
I think walking humbly in your faith is probably one of the most important things in following Christ (this will certainly lead to a lot less judgement and less "I" and "me" in our relationship with God and others).
I went for a long run during the week (first one in a while) and the image of Thomas and Jesus, Theo showed in church popped up in my head. I don't think Jesus wants us to settle in our doubt - he didn't stand in the corner with a hat and some dark glasses on and say to Thomas -well Thomas maybe its me maybe its not - guess you just to have to keep on wondering? He invited him to "solve" his doubt - it was up to Thomas to take that invitation and do something and search more.
But I think more importantly to this discussion (and the whole idea of don't be to harsh on yourself if sometimes you doubt and wrestle) - Jesus didn't stand in the corner and say to him - you stupid idiot - you are doubting me, you lukewarm christian - therefore I will now spit you out of my mouth! He embraced him in his doubt.
Cool - have a good weekend
Dr. Ron Martoia said:There is no question about it doubt brings with it a measure of intellectual humility doesn't it? What we maybe thought was so certain isn't so certain and what we thought we had so easily figured out is now not so clear. I think one of the key things you said is sometimes you just settle for your doubt. This is when doubt DOES BECOME corrosive like rust. And slowly but surely eats away at your confidence in God.
This doesn't mean we have to have everything figured out before faith and confidence are "fully" in place becasue I am not sure that is ever the case or that we could ever say "now I have it all perfectly intact."
Erasing doubt isn't the goal...at least I don't think so. Here is why...as you and I grow there are questions we engage at the next stage of the journey that are different in form, content and depth from the questions of the previous stage...right? Let's think about this in terms of simple development. There are questions at 7 years of age that are no longer questions at 16 years of age but there are new more complex and sophisticated ones.
The issue I think is how we allow the wrestling of the journey at each stage to catalyze movement forward
Regardt Botes said:Hi Ron
Theo touched on it briefly at the end and I don't know if you were still online - but there is also a form of "bad" doubt. And would like to have your thoughts on growth inhibiting doubt.
I think doubt in humbleness goes hand in hand. If doubt makes you humble, but willing to search for more and grow it is great. But doubt can also often kill your passion and sometimes I just settle with my doubt - "its fine to doubt, therefore I will go on doubting" - but not growing. Your thoughts on this? When is doubt positive, when negative? Is there even such a thing!? What does it mean to grow in faith? Do I erase doubt when I grow?
On a related topic - prayer and faith.
I was in a church last year which focussed a lot on healing / miracles etc. The "Whatever you ask in My name I shall give it to you" or "If you have faith (and do not doubt) you will be healed" was thrown around a lot. I had a big knee injury at the time - tore my acl, pcl, medial + miniscus - so I was the perfect instrument for a miracle! tried to believe and have faith for a miracle, but it did not happen.
I tried more and more and tried to convince myself that I had 100% faith that I will be healed -up until I was in the hospital bed being pushed into the theater I prayed and believed that the doctor will open my knee up and that I would be healed.
To cut I long story short - I was not healed - although I understand the path and the process which I had to go through now - and actually seeing a miracle as I was able to fully recover in double quick time and do more than I ever could have thought !! - I intially often doubted my faith, prayer and healing.
Okay - so that's a mouthful - one line question: Do you think God answers doubtful prayers?
Okay
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Ron Martoia on
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Regardt,
You hit it exactly. Jesus can handle our doubt. This isn't an issue of being defective, messed up or belligerent. It is an issue of digging deeper because we realize (your comment about humility) God and even ideas about God are just so huge. And lets be clear even when we have wrestled with those ideas those still aren't God right? Just ideas about Him, our efforts to understand him.
Arrogance = Seeing ourselves higher than we are.
False Humilty = Seeing ourselve lower than we are
Humilty = Seeing ourselves in light of the way God sees us
Regardt Botes said:Thanx Ron
Agree fully with you. Like the last part about doubt acting as a catylyst to a way forward (and in effect not backward).
I think walking humbly in your faith is probably one of the most important things in following Christ (this will certainly lead to a lot less judgement and less "I" and "me" in our relationship with God and others).
I went for a long run during the week (first one in a while) and the image of Thomas and Jesus, Theo showed in church popped up in my head. I don't think Jesus wants us to settle in our doubt - he didn't stand in the corner with a hat and some dark glasses on and say to Thomas -well Thomas maybe its me maybe its not - guess you just to have to keep on wondering? He invited him to "solve" his doubt - it was up to Thomas to take that invitation and do something and search more.
But I think more importantly to this discussion (and the whole idea of don't be to harsh on yourself if sometimes you doubt and wrestle) - Jesus didn't stand in the corner and say to him - you stupid idiot - you are doubting me, you lukewarm christian - therefore I will now spit you out of my mouth! He embraced him in his doubt.
Cool - have a good weekend
Dr. Ron Martoia said:There is no question about it doubt brings with it a measure of intellectual humility doesn't it? What we maybe thought was so certain isn't so certain and what we thought we had so easily figured out is now not so clear. I think one of the key things you said is sometimes you just settle for your doubt. This is when doubt DOES BECOME corrosive like rust. And slowly but surely eats away at your confidence in God.
This doesn't mean we have to have everything figured out before faith and confidence are "fully" in place becasue I am not sure that is ever the case or that we could ever say "now I have it all perfectly intact."
Erasing doubt isn't the goal...at least I don't think so. Here is why...as you and I grow there are questions we engage at the next stage of the journey that are different in form, content and depth from the questions of the previous stage...right? Let's think about this in terms of simple development. There are questions at 7 years of age that are no longer questions at 16 years of age but there are new more complex and sophisticated ones.
The issue I think is how we allow the wrestling of the journey at each stage to catalyze movement forward
Regardt Botes said:Hi Ron
Theo touched on it briefly at the end and I don't know if you were still online - but there is also a form of "bad" doubt. And would like to have your thoughts on growth inhibiting doubt.
I think doubt in humbleness goes hand in hand. If doubt makes you humble, but willing to search for more and grow it is great. But doubt can also often kill your passion and sometimes I just settle with my doubt - "its fine to doubt, therefore I will go on doubting" - but not growing. Your thoughts on this? When is doubt positive, when negative? Is there even such a thing!? What does it mean to grow in faith? Do I erase doubt when I grow?
On a related topic - prayer and faith.
I was in a church last year which focussed a lot on healing / miracles etc. The "Whatever you ask in My name I shall give it to you" or "If you have faith (and do not doubt) you will be healed" was thrown around a lot. I had a big knee injury at the time - tore my acl, pcl, medial + miniscus - so I was the perfect instrument for a miracle! tried to believe and have faith for a miracle, but it did not happen.
I tried more and more and tried to convince myself that I had 100% faith that I will be healed -up until I was in the hospital bed being pushed into the theater I prayed and believed that the doctor will open my knee up and that I would be healed.
To cut I long story short - I was not healed - although I understand the path and the process which I had to go through now - and actually seeing a miracle as I was able to fully recover in double quick time and do more than I ever could have thought !! - I intially often doubted my faith, prayer and healing.
Okay - so that's a mouthful - one line question: Do you think God answers doubtful prayers?
Okay
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